Curia Session V - 194 BC

[Gaius Cassius Vecellinus]

The Consul rises.

Conscript fathers,

Thank you for returning the debate to the matter at hand; allow me to respond to the inquiries as they appeared. The representatives of Propraetor Caesonius Tacitus and my good Co-Consul Furius Pavo will forgive me if I answer both of their inquiries simultanously as they address a similar concern.

Q: Do you believe that the setting aside of 1/5th of the provincial incomes for Hispania will put a hamper on the revenues being sent back to Rome or for investments in the provincial infrastructure?
R: Yes and no, though allow me to explain. For a period, which may be greater or smaller depending on the ability of the governors to contribute to emergency treasury, it is to be expected that revenues to the Republic will be necessarily smaller. For a province with a total yearly revenue of 200,000 Denarii it is expected that it will take around six years for the emergency treasury to be built, during which period provincial transfers will be smaller at least by those 20% that are being reserved.

However, at the conclusion of that period, these funds will be available once more for provincial development and, more over, the province will be capable of responding decisively and immediately to all but the largest threats to its security. This can involve, but isn't limited to, slave uprisings such as occured recently in Italy (but are a real possibility in Sicily), tribal raids such as have occured in Sardinia and so dearly cost us in blood and coin, etc.

Any time the Senate needs to deploy a force to the province, it needs to, in addition to the cost of levying these forces, also accomodate for its transport; but a locally raised force has no such requirement.

To summarize:
1 - There is no difference between the Republic receiving marginally less revenue for a few years vs it having to spend it all at once in a single year.
2 - Forces levied locally do not require 100,000 denarii' worth of transports. The more often these unfortunate events occur, the more the Republic benefits from this arrangement.
3 - Given that 250,000 Denarii is the minimum sum required to raise a Socii legion and militia has shown itself to be nearly useless against anything but the most minimum disturbances, I would defend this as the ideal target figure.

Q: Would it not be possible to, in the future, remove command of legions from provincial governors and instead appoint a specific commander from this Senate to lead military campaigns or a Consul send themselves abroad as necessary?
R: This is up to the Senate to decide though my opinion is twofold on this matter:

Firstly, I disagree that provincial governors ought to be "forbidden" or deprived of the right to command legions. This is the basis of imperium and a governor without the right to military command would be a disservice to our provinces and a break of tradition.

However, I am in agreement in regards cementing the role of Governors as custodians of their provinces while leaving the duties of diplomacy in the hands of the Senate; in other words, Governors ought to be responsible for protecting their provinces but anything which requires interaction beyond these borders, fluid as they may be, should be left to the Senate and its magistrates to decide.

While I wouldn't go so far as saying that it needs to be a Consul to lead these endeavors, someone could be appointed a Proconsul to do so, I would deem it best practice for the future if it was not a governor, for it is clear that the duty of provincial defense is not easily reconciliable with leading offensive campaigns.

From Senator Allectus Maximus: I would however expect a report by the year’s end from every Governor to see their progress towards the reserve and for the Quaestor assigned to the province to confirm it’s total and if the funds have been used for any other purpose other than the defense of the province.

I am in full agreement with this observation.

I yield the floor.

[Gaius Quinctilius Varus]

Quint. Quint. Quietus rises to speak.

Conscript Fathers,


As far as this piece of legislation: I find it to be bureaucratic, systemically implemented inefficiency. Rome provides for the defense of the provinces. Rome alone can raise legions, even allied ones, so why are we requiring provinces to hold accounts for funds they cannot spend, and Rome can not use? More needlessly over thought rules for the provinces.


The fact that we are still discussing reinforcements to Hispania at this late hour is a depressing farce. Good Varus stood at the ready to campaign with forces present at the beginning of the season, for why would we have granted both governors a veteran legion and Socii Ala if they were not deemed sufficient to campaign within frontier provinces, where the enemies of Rome lie across practically every border and often spill over into Roman territory.

When Quinctilius Varus asked this august body for approval for war with the Ilergetes, a noble and legal thing to do, he asked for a local Socii only out of expectation that if his war was deemed legal and the aims were more than fanciful adventuring into Barbarian lands, he be given reinforcements only to further tip the scales towards certain success, knowing when he was granted sufficient force to prosecute the war without any other assistance and that his fellow promagistrate held sufficient force to campaign himself in Ulterior.

The recent edict for the region has accomplished two things. Completely removed any need for reinforcing the region and halved the potential success, as the debate and scrutinizing, then needless decree took up much of the campaign season and required both governors now to be in the same place.

So please, let us cease this discussion of more legions for Hispania for the rest of the year, lest we are still talking of it when the Promagistrates have themselves returned to Rome and can join in the discussion.

[Postumus Caesonius Tacitus]

Proxy for Caesonius Tacitus would speak.

Conscript fathers,

Could the transportation costs issue be resolved by simply having the senate specifically order the raising of the allied legion in the province itself?

[Gaius Cassius Vecellinus]

The Consul rises.

Conscript father,

That is true, but even in that scenario I still see many advantages in maintaining a provincial emergency treasury, chief among which is the fact that it allows a much quicker response to an unexpected situation than having to send a request for reinforcement to Rome, have it debated and voted upon in the Senate, ship the money to the afflicted province and then raise the legion locally.

Moreover, it also more firmly establishes the principle that provinces ought to serve Rome, and not vice-versa. I could not disagree more with those that consider that Rome has a sort of paternalist responsibility towards her provinces, the opposite is true. The Republic expands for the benefits of her People and those lands ought to support themselves whenever possible; only when this is impossible and the possibility of future reward so justifies it, should the Republic move to secure her interests.

To take into account the input by Senator Allectus Fabius Maximus, I have edited the Lex proposal to include a mechanism for oversight of the emergency fund by comparing the records of the cessating governor and the newly appointed and removed the former VIII Article which, upon re-read, I found to be redundant.

LEX DE PROVINCIIS CUSTODIENDIS (Law for the Guarding of Provinces)
Sponsor: Gaius Cassius Vecellinus

WHEREAS the Senate recognizes that the lack of a defined defence policy for the provinces has resulted in needless loss of Roman life;
WHEREAS the Senate seeks to create an emergency mechanism for the defence of its citizens and foederati;
WHEREAS the Senate acknowledges the special status of its provinces in Hispania;

Be it enacted by the Senate of the Roman Republic in the Curia Hostilia assembled,
I. The provinces of Rome, both those currently in existence and any that may be created, will be henceforth be required to either maintain or work towards a minimum permanent emergency treasury of 250,000 Denarii.
II. Until the amount listed in Article I is reached, provinces will reserve no less than one-fifth of their revenues for this purpose.
III. The emergency treasury will only be used for the sole purposes of defeating raids, incursions or other existential threats to the safety of the Republic in the province and/or its citizens.
IV. The penalty for unauthorized use, as listed in Article III, of the emergency treasury will be, at a minimum, that the withdrawn amount will be held as debt to be repaid within twelve months by the Propraetor or Proconsul who levied it. The Senate, following a Consular proposal, will evaluate if the use was indeed legitimate or not.
V. Provinces will be authorized, under the same conditions required to use the emergency treasury, to levy a single socii legion from within their territories.
VI. Given their particular status as frontier provinces subject to more frequent attacks and incursions, Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior will, at no detriment to the option to levy another allied legion as per Article V, maintain a standing socii legion.
VII. Half of the cost taken by the provinces in Article VI will be subsidized by the Senate from the Temple of Saturn at 125,000 Denarii per year each.
VIII. Governors are responsible for reporting to the Senate, in the last month of their term, the status of the emergency fund at the start and at the end of their term as well as any information that puts into question the integrity of its accounting.
IX. The present law will take effect on the consular year of 193BC onwards.

Written into the annals in the consular year 194BC of Gaius Cassius Vecellinus and Titus Furius Pavo

Unless there are suggestions for improvement of the motion I suggest we move swiftly to a vote.

I yield the floor.

[Postumus Caesonius Tacitus]

Proxy for Caesonius Tacitus would speak.

Conscript fathers,

Just to clarify on article II, Is 20% gross or net revenues?

For example, would this mean that the next governor of Saradina would be required to just pay 120,000 Denarii in taxes to Rome due to putting 30,000 Denarii of what would previously go to Rome in an 'emergency treasury' along with putting 20% of the net income to the emergency treasury as well?

[Gaius Claudius Nero Liguricus]

Senator Nero rises to speak

Conscript Fathers,

I have a question for the proxies of the Promagistrates of Hispania. Do each of your provinces have the required manpower to raise multiple Socii legions, as well as enough manpower to raise Socii legions each year locally without reducing their homes and farmland to abandonment and desolation? I only wish to ensure that this proposal of relying on local Socii legions for the provinces of Hispania is possible or not.

Nero turns to the Consul before continuing

Good Consul, I wish to ask, why have a provincial fund to finance an emergency legion with when that is the purpose of the Republic's treasury? I ask because it would stagnate the growth of the provinces, chiefly Hispania Citerior quite significantly as my earlier experience there has shown me, it is quite a poor province, particularly in comparison to Hispania Ulterior. It seems like it would be significantly better to maintain funding for legions from Rome, and allow the Provinces to continue developing as they have.

The subsidisation of a legion by each province also seems entirely unnecessary when that, again, is the purpose of the Roman treasury. It makes no sense to do so, and further hamstrings the provinces potential to instead paying for a legion. I would very much prefer maintaining the current system, and instead paying for local Socii troops out of the Republic's treasury.

You stated that the provinces ought to serve Rome, but I fully disagree with that notion. The provinces provide taxes, resources and funding to Rome, and in exchange they receive defences and protection from the Republic as a whole. Having each province pay to defend itself was what happened in Sardinia, and I absolutely refuse to have this happen again should the provinces not have the funding required to pay for their defence. To decentralise our military funding because of some bickering senators is something I will not support.

[Gaius Cassius Vecellinus]

The Consul rises.

I believe it was the governor of Hispania Citerior to inform us that it would be possible to levy these troops locally.

As for the remainder of your argument, I must respectfully agree to disagree. The purpose of the Republic's treasury is to protect our city, our citizens and our allies, in that rough order of importance; we have reduced it by 50% to five million denarii from its initial figure of 10 million denarii only two years ago. We are squandering what our predecessors have left us and leaving our state precariously vulnerable for it.

Consul Titus Furius Pavo's campaign, of 30,000 men, has cost us approximately 3 million Denarii; this, for a campaign against a foe that while legendary in one-to-one prowess, is still only capable of putting so many men in the field. If, for any reason, we found ourselves in the need of raising another army like that of my Co-Consul and that army was defeated, we would find ourselves without the means to adequately protect our heartland. This is the crux of the matter, we are one Gods' dice roll away from disaster and we close our eyes to this reality.

Moreover, this motion will not, and does not intend to, change the basic fact that the provinces are, and will continue to be, a net drain on our Republic for the foreseeable future. Even the wealthy Hispania Ulterior can't provide more in taxes than it has received from its hereto allotment of two legions, one Roman and one Socii.

The main purpose of this motion is to simply reduce, in a very moderate fashion, the unbalanced equation that is our yearly investments in the province versus what they provide to the Republic. I have no doubt, that in due time, these provinces will repay several fold what will be put into them, but at the current rate, I'm afraid we won't be alive to see it happen. Rome, Romans and Italians also deserve access to more and better infrastructure and what do they get for their pains? Overseas service, meager pay, abandoned farmlands at home, hardship and even death.

There is a better path and that path, I believe, is this motion. If Sardinia had had the funds to raise a Socii legion, I believe the former Governor would've received an ovatio rather than the critique of nearly every Senator in this chamber, including myself; are we waiting for the next tragedy to be mismanaged due to lack of local resources? Due to the Governor not wanting to request the Senate's aid?

Have we truly not learned that we cannot base our government on the virtuous, but naive idea, that the bad magistrate is the exception rather than the rule? Only the Senate, this collective body of like minded and invested men, can provide solid and consistently competent leadership for the Republic, that is the virtuous idea I believe we should all strive for.

I yield the floor.

[Gaius Cassius Vecellinus]

Proxy for Caesonius Tacitus would speak.

Conscript fathers,

Just to clarify on article II, Is 20% gross or net revenues?

For example, would this mean that the next governor of Saradina would be required to just pay 120,000 Denarii in taxes to Rome due to putting 30,000 Denarii of what would previously go to Rome in an 'emergency treasury' along with putting 20% of the net income to the emergency treasury as well?

The Consul rises again.

Forgive me Senator for not addressing your question.

This would be 20% of gross provincial revenues but it is understood that transfers to the Temple of Saturn would necessarily be smaller as a result.

I yield the floor.

[Marcus Decius Bellicus]

The Proxy Rises

"Consul, how is the money from these emergency funds to get to Rome, during an attack, should more than one Socii legion be needed? What of in cases where one Socii legion would not be enough, does the Province have to wait until such a time as a message can be sent to Rome to the Senate, then back to the province, then the money be shipped to the Temple of Saturn, then it is used by the Senate to raise additional forces?

"I must say I agree with my colleagues that question the *why* of this attempted piece of legislation, that does not appear to have much support outside of yourself and your small gathering of supporters. Indeed, this very legislation is shown to be wholly inaccurate in its first "WHERAS statement" in that the loss of Roman lives is not due to a lack of a defense policy, it was due to the lack of actions of this Senate and one Sardinian promagistrate. The second is inaccurate because the Senate does not wish to create this fund, you do Consul. And I would imagine that the third would not be widely accepted, although it is a nice token gesture to the Propraetor and Proconsul in Hispania after their pleas were wholly ignored.

"Why, by your own calculations, you said it could take six years or more to reach a point where this emergency fund is put into place. So what does that do for the immediate needs of the provinces? How would this have prevented the attacks in Sardinia? How would that do anything in two, three, four or five years' time if, should the Gods be angered, another attack occurs?

"Conscript Fathers, we hear today from the Consul that the provinces, the financial backbone of the greater Republic, are a net drain on this Republic, yet we are here debating legislation that would take away even more of their ability to create and send revenues to Rome. I will not pretend to have the arithmetical powers of some such as the Senator representing Lucretius Tricipitinus, however I do not see how the best way to solve a loss of money is to take more from the thing costing you said moneys.

[TerranSteel]

The proxy for Consul Furius Pavo rises calmly to speak.

“Consul, would it be more prudent to have the ‘defense savings’ accounted upon receiving taxes from the provinces? Individual governors may be perhaps inconsistent and we would never fully know the exact savings at any given time.

If the Senate creates and oversees these defense budgets with revenue from the provinces, we can see in total the amount that sits in them and the full 20% extracted for this purpose. Provinces merely need to send us their taxes in full as they have always done.”