Curia Session IV - 194 BC
- Marcus Decius Bellicus
- Posts: 1128
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:44 pm
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
The Proxy turns to P. Proximus Maximus
"You heard the coterie, Senator. If troops leave a province it will immediately fall into Sardinian levels of discord. Why, even the former magistrate of Sardinia agrees!"
"You heard the coterie, Senator. If troops leave a province it will immediately fall into Sardinian levels of discord. Why, even the former magistrate of Sardinia agrees!"
He is a proconsul of Rome.
- Gaius Cassius Vecellinus
- Posts: 914
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:49 pm
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
The latest interventions struck a nerve with the Consul, his face twitching at the occasional comment.
Conscript fathers,
Enough is enough; I shan't see these two squabbling groups continue to lob insults at each other any longer. With every witty jab, smirk and criticism of character we debase ourselves, our ancestors and this very chamber. I have entertained days debate and proposals but we are no closer to a solution in regards Hispania or Rome's issues in the provinces.
I'm going to use my Consular power and end this dispute between the two Hispanian magistrates immediately; a copy of these proceedings will be dispatched to my fellow co-Consul so that he may review my act and consider their adequacy as befits our tradition of balancing of power.
Let it be known to all in the Chamber. The following set of orders are hereby sent to the Propraetor of Hispania Citerior and Proconsul of Hispania Ulterior:
I yield the floor.
Conscript fathers,
Enough is enough; I shan't see these two squabbling groups continue to lob insults at each other any longer. With every witty jab, smirk and criticism of character we debase ourselves, our ancestors and this very chamber. I have entertained days debate and proposals but we are no closer to a solution in regards Hispania or Rome's issues in the provinces.
I'm going to use my Consular power and end this dispute between the two Hispanian magistrates immediately; a copy of these proceedings will be dispatched to my fellow co-Consul so that he may review my act and consider their adequacy as befits our tradition of balancing of power.
Let it be known to all in the Chamber. The following set of orders are hereby sent to the Propraetor of Hispania Citerior and Proconsul of Hispania Ulterior:
My prerogative for this action comes from my Imperium as Consul of Rome, equal only by that of my Co-Consul, and superior to that of any other magistrate or promagistrate. Defiance of these orders by any of the involved individuals will be treated as insubordination and, before the Gods, I pledge to follow through with legal prosecution whenever that individuals' imperium expires, and it will eventually, and seek the maximal application of the law.TO: Marcus Decius Bellicus and Gaius Quinctilius Varus
I. The military forces currently stationed in Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior shall henceforth fall under the joint command of both province's governors.
II. Said command will be shared equally between both individuals by joint agreement, if possible, or by alternating days of command, as is our tradition, when impossible.
III. At no time shall a province be left with less than one legion, Roman or allied, deployed.
IV. Without prejudice to the needs of provincial defense, the combined force is commanded to remove, by force or voluntary and unconditional submission, the threat levied by the Ilegertes against our provinces and others as determined by the joint command.
V. The spoils of war will be distributed in equal amounts between both the commanding officers, after sufficient compensation is granted to their soldiers and the Republic. What is sufficient compensation is left at their discretion depending on the result of the campaign.
Done in sight of the Senate and the People of Rome.
/s/
Consul Gaius Cassius Vecellinus
194 BC - Rome
I yield the floor.
Last edited by Gaius Cassius Vecellinus on Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Civis romanus sum
- Marcus Decius Bellicus
- Posts: 1128
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:44 pm
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
The Proxy rises to his feet slowly
"Consul, so you doom Ulterior to its fate then? I can assure you I do not see a way in which Proconsul Marcus Decius Bellicus can be expected to be ordered to allow an enemy to stay on his frontier unpunished. I find it perplexing that you supporting the Proconsul to have overall command, and now doom the entire operation to the vagaries of a sundial in terms of who should be in command on a given, something that has been cited in these very proceedings against such a venture."
"Consul, so you doom Ulterior to its fate then? I can assure you I do not see a way in which Proconsul Marcus Decius Bellicus can be expected to be ordered to allow an enemy to stay on his frontier unpunished. I find it perplexing that you supporting the Proconsul to have overall command, and now doom the entire operation to the vagaries of a sundial in terms of who should be in command on a given, something that has been cited in these very proceedings against such a venture."
He is a proconsul of Rome.
- Amulius Valerius Marius
- Posts: 522
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:06 pm
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
Such a feature defeated Carthage, no less.Marcus Decius Bellicus wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:46 pm The Proxy rises to his feet slowly
"Consul, so you doom Ulterior to its fate then? I can assure you I do not see a way in which Proconsul Marcus Decius Bellicus can be expected to be ordered to allow an enemy to stay on his frontier unpunished. I find it perplexing that you supporting the Proconsul to have overall command, and now doom the entire operation to the vagaries of a sundial in terms of who should be in command on a given, something that has been cited in these very proceedings against such a venture."
Hastati
- Marcus Decius Bellicus
- Posts: 1128
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:44 pm
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
The proxy for Decius Bellicus casts a glance towards the Scipiones
He is a proconsul of Rome.
-
Marcus Aurelius Cotta
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:13 pm
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
Would the Consul be willing to accept a friendly amendment of raising the imperium of the propraetor that of a proconsul for the remainder of his governorship to make this arrangement compliant with mos maiorum?Gaius Cassius Vecellinus wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:40 pm The latest interventions struck a nerve with the Consul, his face twitching at the occasional comment.
Conscript fathers,
Enough is enough; I shan't see these two squabbling groups continue to lob insults at each other any longer. With every witty jab, smirk and criticism of character we debase ourselves, our ancestors and this very chamber. I have entertained days debate and proposals but we are no closer to a solution in regards Hispania or Rome's issues in the provinces.
I'm going to use my Consular power and end this dispute between the two Hispanian magistrates immediately; a copy of these proceedings will be dispatched to my fellow co-Consul so that he may review my act and consider their adequacy as befits our tradition of balancing of power.
Let it be known to all in the Chamber. The following set of orders are hereby sent to the Propraetor of Hispania Citerior and Proconsul of Hispania Ulterior:
My prerogative for this action comes from my Imperium as Consul of Rome, equal only by that of my Co-Consul, and superior to that of any other magistrate or promagistrate. Defiance of these orders by any of the involved individuals will be treated as insubordination and, before the Gods, I pledge to follow through with legal prosecution whenever that individuals' imperium expires, and it will eventually, and seek the maximal application of the law.TO: Marcus Decius Bellicus and Gaius Quinctilius Varus
I. The military forces currently stationed in Hispania Citerior and Hispania Ulterior shall henceforth fall under the joint command of both province's governors.
II. Said command will be shared equally between both individuals by joint agreement, if possible, or by alternating days of command, as is our tradition, when impossible.
III. At no time shall a province be left with less than one legion, Roman or allied, deployed.
IV. Without prejudice to the needs of provincial defense, the combined force is commanded to remove, by force or voluntary and unconditional submission, the threat levied by the Ilegertes against our provinces and others as determined by the joint command.
V. The spoils of war will be distributed in equal amounts between both the commanding officers, after sufficient compensation is granted to their soldiers and the Republic. What is sufficient compensation is left at their discretion depending on the result of the campaign.
Done in sight of the Senate and the People of Rome.
/s/
Consul Gaius Cassius Vecellinus
194 BC - Rome
I yield the floor.
He is a Consul of Rome
- Allectus Fabius Maximus
- Posts: 506
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:03 pm
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
Primus Proximus Maximus looked outraged and stood up to speak
Good Consul,
Why have you set yourself up to launch an illegal war in Hispania? The Senate has the ultimate authority on authorizing hostilities against foreign adversaries. There is enough support for it with the disagreements being about how to wage said war. This unilateral action on your part is contrary to the mos mairorum and I for one will not consent to it without a proper vote and accounting of it by the Senate.
Good Consul,
Why have you set yourself up to launch an illegal war in Hispania? The Senate has the ultimate authority on authorizing hostilities against foreign adversaries. There is enough support for it with the disagreements being about how to wage said war. This unilateral action on your part is contrary to the mos mairorum and I for one will not consent to it without a proper vote and accounting of it by the Senate.
Allecto
Senator - Patrician
Naval Legate - Laconian War 194
Propraetor of Hispania Citerior 193
Senator - Patrician
Naval Legate - Laconian War 194
Propraetor of Hispania Citerior 193
- Gaius Quinctilius Varus
- Posts: 1024
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:39 am
- Location: What stands in the way becomes the way.
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
Q.Q.Q. Rises
Consul, is this the will of the Senate which you said you would abide by? When you spoke of voting imminently on the very topic you now make broad rulings superseding over, what changed? I denounce your decree as needlessly arbitrary and believe you are rushing provincial business now that you have found something more of interest for you to pursue. What has so spurned you that you simply refused to vote on a matter and now rule by decree over it?
Consul, is this the will of the Senate which you said you would abide by? When you spoke of voting imminently on the very topic you now make broad rulings superseding over, what changed? I denounce your decree as needlessly arbitrary and believe you are rushing provincial business now that you have found something more of interest for you to pursue. What has so spurned you that you simply refused to vote on a matter and now rule by decree over it?
crustyrustyaphid
Formerly Kaiser und König Franz Ferdinand I
Formerly Major General Don Carlos Buell
Formerly King Carol I
Formerly Kaiser und König Franz Ferdinand I
Formerly Major General Don Carlos Buell
Formerly King Carol I
- Gaius Quinctilius Varus
- Posts: 1024
- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:39 am
- Location: What stands in the way becomes the way.
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
Q.Q.Q. half sat and rose once more
Furthermore Consul, Quinctilius Varus can not and will not obey your edict, for you declared illegal war within it. For was not the entire reason the matter was even before this august body that Imperium alone could not declare this war? Why would we still even be discussing or ruling over this if the Imperium of a promagistrate was enough? We could literally be celebrating Quinctilius Varus victory over them by now if it was simply for the withholding of a vote by you, Consul.
So, unless you wish to have four legions marching and countermarching a rut into Iberia, you will still need a Senate vote for war against the Ilergetes
Furthermore Consul, Quinctilius Varus can not and will not obey your edict, for you declared illegal war within it. For was not the entire reason the matter was even before this august body that Imperium alone could not declare this war? Why would we still even be discussing or ruling over this if the Imperium of a promagistrate was enough? We could literally be celebrating Quinctilius Varus victory over them by now if it was simply for the withholding of a vote by you, Consul.
So, unless you wish to have four legions marching and countermarching a rut into Iberia, you will still need a Senate vote for war against the Ilergetes
crustyrustyaphid
Formerly Kaiser und König Franz Ferdinand I
Formerly Major General Don Carlos Buell
Formerly King Carol I
Formerly Kaiser und König Franz Ferdinand I
Formerly Major General Don Carlos Buell
Formerly King Carol I
- Marcus Decius Bellicus
- Posts: 1128
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:44 pm
Re: Curia Session IV - 194 BC
The Proxy to M. Decius Bellicus rises, having sat again when Q.Q.Q. did an impromptu jig
"Although political expediency would lead one to believe that Proconsul M. Decius Bellicus, Scourge of the Boii and all that, would be to leave Propraetor G. Quinctilius Varus hanging in the wind on this issue, I must agree with his proxy in the name of the Proconsul. You had a path forward that could have worked for all parties involved, but you abandoned it after a few votes were cast...
He looks around the body
"Since then, you have lurched from unwise measure to unwise measure, as though the thought of a divided vote occurring would be antithetical to the good conduct of a democracy. This latest one is not only unwise and dangerous, but it is perhaps even an affront to the course of business of the Roman Republic and an affront to the imperium of not only Proconsul Decius Bellicus, but more importantly that of Propraetor Quinctilius Varus.
"Since this debate began, I have not objected to the need for the honor and glory of the Republic to be defended in Hispania Citerior, nor that as the Propraetor that Quinctilius Varus should be left to sit on the sidelines without having the input due to him as the elected representative of the Senate to that far-flung territory. Although the means through which the upstart tribes, whose names need not be repeated in these hallowed halls, should be pacified is something that myself and the proxy for the Propraetor may not agree, we are united in saying this is a grave overreach of your office, Consul.
"You spoke of a disagreement between the magistrates which does not exist. The only disagreement that appears to exist right now is between the Consul, presiding over this session, and the will of the Senate. Some of the measures supported by the Propraetor may have been seconded by some of the lowliest members of this assembly, but I do not, nor does the Proconsul, see that as a reflection of the Propraetor, but merely a reflection of those underhanded, self-ambitious members. You have ended votes early, promised votes that did not occur and have now attempted to unilaterally subvert the imperium of magistrates outside of the walls of Rome.
"I attempted to work with the original proposal you gave to allow for the propraetor to have a measure of the conduct of war in his territory, as befit his imperium as the Propraetor and that of the Proconsul M. Decius Bellicus. I am not sure how it was allowed to occur but it appears that some in this body saw it as an affront to the Propraetor, instead of acting within the boundaries of the very foundations of this body. I would say that if if the good Propraetor or his proxy were questioning the honor of the Proconsul, they could speak with Propraetor M. Silvius Pastor or his proxy as to how he was included in not only the conduct of battle as his Legatus, but also its spoils.
"Let us not forget that M. Decius Bellicus forwent his own triumph in the name of defending the character of the Republic and the very office that you now hold, Consul. So to any here that wish to say he acts in his own self-interest or that he does not have a kind heart within his chest, let them ask which form of Consul he emulated, that which marched to war in the name of the Republic...or that which sought to enforce his own will out of some misconstrued meaning of what is right or just."
"Although political expediency would lead one to believe that Proconsul M. Decius Bellicus, Scourge of the Boii and all that, would be to leave Propraetor G. Quinctilius Varus hanging in the wind on this issue, I must agree with his proxy in the name of the Proconsul. You had a path forward that could have worked for all parties involved, but you abandoned it after a few votes were cast...
He looks around the body
"Since then, you have lurched from unwise measure to unwise measure, as though the thought of a divided vote occurring would be antithetical to the good conduct of a democracy. This latest one is not only unwise and dangerous, but it is perhaps even an affront to the course of business of the Roman Republic and an affront to the imperium of not only Proconsul Decius Bellicus, but more importantly that of Propraetor Quinctilius Varus.
"Since this debate began, I have not objected to the need for the honor and glory of the Republic to be defended in Hispania Citerior, nor that as the Propraetor that Quinctilius Varus should be left to sit on the sidelines without having the input due to him as the elected representative of the Senate to that far-flung territory. Although the means through which the upstart tribes, whose names need not be repeated in these hallowed halls, should be pacified is something that myself and the proxy for the Propraetor may not agree, we are united in saying this is a grave overreach of your office, Consul.
"You spoke of a disagreement between the magistrates which does not exist. The only disagreement that appears to exist right now is between the Consul, presiding over this session, and the will of the Senate. Some of the measures supported by the Propraetor may have been seconded by some of the lowliest members of this assembly, but I do not, nor does the Proconsul, see that as a reflection of the Propraetor, but merely a reflection of those underhanded, self-ambitious members. You have ended votes early, promised votes that did not occur and have now attempted to unilaterally subvert the imperium of magistrates outside of the walls of Rome.
"I attempted to work with the original proposal you gave to allow for the propraetor to have a measure of the conduct of war in his territory, as befit his imperium as the Propraetor and that of the Proconsul M. Decius Bellicus. I am not sure how it was allowed to occur but it appears that some in this body saw it as an affront to the Propraetor, instead of acting within the boundaries of the very foundations of this body. I would say that if if the good Propraetor or his proxy were questioning the honor of the Proconsul, they could speak with Propraetor M. Silvius Pastor or his proxy as to how he was included in not only the conduct of battle as his Legatus, but also its spoils.
"Let us not forget that M. Decius Bellicus forwent his own triumph in the name of defending the character of the Republic and the very office that you now hold, Consul. So to any here that wish to say he acts in his own self-interest or that he does not have a kind heart within his chest, let them ask which form of Consul he emulated, that which marched to war in the name of the Republic...or that which sought to enforce his own will out of some misconstrued meaning of what is right or just."
He is a proconsul of Rome.
